Greenough/Crozier/Crawford Project

[salty]

Hey Bruce,

Saw the photos you posted in the gallery. Must have been the board I saw in your rack last week. Quite intriguing...although not too sure about where your going with the semi-ground-out tail.

As you may recall, I worked for Crozier when I was just a wee lad and used to get a new board every month or so (what a deal eh). From Chris's flex-tail standard I used to re-sand the tail down until it was flexy then put on a new gloss coat. Used to foil my own fins to get a good flex as well. These boards used to go great in sucky waves like big Whaley Wedge...

Thinking back to those days..do you recall Paul "Horse" Connor..he used to shape for Chris in between his couple of week sabbaticals..he used to come in..shape a heap of blanks and then disappear for weeks. He shaped quite afew of my boards(actually preferred him to Chris...especially if I could stand there and get him to fine tune a bit here or there... Also used to shape in a rolled deck, keeping foam in the board that seemed to be a plus to Chris's quite flat decks. Ah..reminiscing...one day if I have the spare cash Ill get one of those old style flexs...

For now..my 5'10" Hart blitzes the waves.....

Cheers Doug

[hart]

Hey Bruce,

Thinking back to those days..do you recall Paul "Horse" Connor..he used to shape for Chris in between his couple of week sabbaticals..Cheers Doug

Yeah, mate

Horse was an incredible shaper given we are talking early to mid 70's

And he was Crawford's first choice shaper at the time

Even though Chris Crozier's shaping was (argueably) more accurate and cleaner..Paul Connors possessed the (almost unique at the time) ability to maintain foam in a board..but refine it's rail-line so that none of that foam was ever 'felt' during turns and carves

First shaper I knew who put legitimate FOIL into the profiles of Slab-style kneeboards

hart

glad the newies doin' it. thx for the heads-up

[Shelfbreak]

Regarding flex fins and flex tails. As a beginner on flextail Crozier slabs I was oblivious of the fine tuning and sanding of fins and tails as mentioned by Salty and referred to by PC in one of those magazine articles posted by Zorro et al.

I remain a bit dubious about stored energy in flex fins contributing to drive when they 'snap back'. Imagine how much you could flex them by hand and equate that amount of force being directed into accelerating board with rider on. My guess is that it would be negligible. Happy to be corrected, maybe when a board is already travelling that modest amount of energy does make a noticeable difference.

I can recall that slide slipping sensation on takeoff and feeling of acceleration when the fin finally caught, but my 'hypothesis' was that it was shedding energy until that point. Or maybe it just meant my fin was set in the wrong part of the fin box and poorly matched to my skill level!

Hey Bruce - unless I've missed it, any updates on watertime with the project?

Regards to all

[DYdamo]

Im keen for some updates too...........when do Iget a go

[hart]

The two main features of this creation are

1 Displacement hull principle to the bottom shape

and

2 The flex characteristics in the tail

So..I'll take the easy one first..

the flex..Shelfbreak I know what you are talking about when you mention early flextails (way spongey)..and this was something I wanted to avoid

The flex in this board is difficult to feel by hand..its not until you lay the board on the ground (bottom up) and plant your foot into the middle of it, can you really feel the flex

And it is this flex in the water that feels all positive

Now the tricky bit..the 'hull'

It continues to feel that I have too much foam (not surprising really, because all spoons with this bottom shape have ZERO foam!)

It feels that with no real push from the lip (like straight out of the pocket) it doesn't want to come off-the-top

I guess it could be-

(a) Lack of release due to a lack of planing (because it is displacing)

or

(b) It is pushing water due to the 'upturned' rail-line through the front one-third

And that's creating a negative

So far all things good off the bottom..but things are a little sticky off the top

A good US friend sent me some footage of GG I hadn't seen before and I have been studying it intently

What I notice is an extraordinary attack off the BOTTOM of each and every wave he surfs..but I must confess, I also see some less than perfect manoeuvres coming from the TOP one-third of the wave

Somehow..the energy that is harnessed from the bottom isn't being realised at the top of the wave

Qualification: I am of course, comparing 1960's footage with a 21st Century 'lip approach' and therefore all this becomes subjective

But none-the-less I keep wondering if I should have simply included the flextail concept onto a modern 'planing' type bottom without the 'displacement' style that I have chosen



Damo

How's it mate?

Yeah..I reckon its time to let the Rotty off the chain

Cause if anyone can get this board off-the-top..

Its gunna be YOU!

Me

[Shelfbreak]

Thanks for the update Bruce

Presumably as you go up a wave you are relying on momentum (uphill) but the wave is still moving towards shore so there is a force ready to act on any object which resists movement in that direction. Maybe an effective cutback relies on harnessing some of that energy before a rider can then re-take advantage of gravity.

Conceptually I can imagine a displacement hull being as or more effective than a conventional board when running with/along a wave, but when going of the top perhaps it's efficient hull displaces too much of the wave's energy.

Regardless of whether my amatuer physics makes any sense , I still think tyour project will advance yours and the collective understanding of kneeboarding principles.

Logical next step would seem to extend testing to other DY notables!

Good luck!

[red]

It is pushing water due to the 'upturned' rail-line through the front one-third

This is the thing I noticed with the GG videos. The boards push water all over the place when the front contacts the water (i.e. not in bottom turns). I thought I might get lynched when I mentioned it on the spoon thread.

included the flextail concept onto a modern 'planing' type bottom without the 'displacement' style that I have chosen

I think you're on the money here.
I think the problem for doing this on a conventional spoon shape (parallel rails, wide tail) will be that the board simply goes toooo fast because the water flow in and out will be too easy Even though flex provides virtual rail curve the board may well be impossible to turn.
I'm glad of your findings because this is the route I've designed but haven't got around to making (modern water-in flows with spoon out-flows and tail shape).
Could be that the curve you've put in the tail plane shape will make such a board possible to turn.

Of course, the displacement hull might be necessary to provide rail rocker in the transition from straight line to turn

But all this is just pure speculation on my part from playing with my rubber ducky in the bath.

[DYdamo]

Man, you guy's think alot this stuff don't ya.
s'pose your the only one's doing it though.
Now I just gotta wait for the swell to build again

[hart]

Now I just gotta wait for the swell to build again

Damo

Justin Crawdad happenned to drop by 236 this arvo

I told him what I said above

With the board under his arm he said..

"In good waves, there is no way this board won't come off the top.."

There-in lies the question



When do we draw the line about our shapes NEEDING good waves?



red..

just like pandora's box 1..I reckon I will be lynched any minute now

Glad 2 C your looking at the same things

hart

Damien..where the fark R U?



You want me to put it on that tile hoist to get it up to ya?

(tradesmen..they're ALL the same)

[DYdamo]

Ah bruiser,now you of all people should know of my reluctance to surf S*%T,and I can only do that "lump of foam"any justice by riding in quality (4 ft&over)point waves hopefully It'll be a south swell and I won't have to buy (borrow,from you )a pair of fins.
And also I know Didely squat about spoons and thier ilk (never ridden one )But I do know this,(I hope)GG did mainly favour point breaks didn't he ?? Did'nt the board need a constant wall to function?...I think a holiday in QLD might be on the cards


Anyway Mate thanks for the offer Ciao

[Man O' War]

This is the thing I noticed with the GG videos. The boards push water all over the place when the front contacts the water (i.e. not in bottom turns).

Lynch Red!

[quadfin]

Hey Bruce,

If I remember my "spoon" years, the board would stall similar to an airplane when the tail would get below the nose. I rode predominantly small waves and adapted by doing a series of short turns and by cutting down the Greenough fin. In size the board would seem to fold up around me and never missed the extra fin length as it was all rail to rail.

Sweet looking board you made and keep us posted.

[HERBYJ]

Bruce

I was wondering where you were with this board re its development?

Any newer thoughts or developments?